Hmm. You accuse anyone a bit disappointed or estranged that the main character is gay of being a homophobe, and yet you've gone ahead and told us that all the mods in this series are going to have heavy homosexual allusions. The concepts of both of these were nice, I preferred Polaris because it reminded me of Katamari Damacy, and didn't shove "YOUR CHARACTER IS GAY" down your throat. In fact, I think HWC would be better without voice acting for a few reasons.
It'd be nice to see you go back and make the player character as faceless and emotion-devoid as Freeman. You're complaining about how 99% of games don't contour to gays, so how about making your mods flexible enough so anyone, gays included, can relate? I'd prefer to think of the main character as a girl (and in most games where you can build your character, like Fallout 3, I prefer playing as a girl), which wouldn't have any in-game repercussions and wouldn't break any story or plot elements besides it being a gay marriage (which you yourself have said is a throw-away detail people shouldn't focus on anyways).
Bonus question: Are you gay?
Liner Notes: Handle With Care
73 posts • Page 3 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Campaignjunkie » Jul 28 2009
I actually make it a point NOT to make "the gay" the focus of any of these, and a future throwaway gay porn joke is hardly a "heavy homosexual allusion." And in HWC, Dylan doesn't lean over and say "I want to eat your cock." I thought I treated it all pretty matter-of-factly... not shoved down anyone's throat. *ahem*
Now let me talk about something in literary criticism called the "intentional fallacy" - which argues that you can never know what an author's purest intentions were in crafting any work, even if they say "These were my intentions..." because the work is independent by itself. It's like J.K Rowling saying, "By the way, Dumbledore's gay." Well, NO HE'S NOT because there's no evidence in the text that shows he is. So maybe your interpretation involves the narrator of Polaris being a squirrel, or James becoming a born-again straight at the end. Read into it yourself. James is a girl? Fine. Great.
If someone were "a bit disappointed or estranged" that a main character is black, we wouldn't hesitate to call that racism. So I'm calling it homophobia because, uh, that's what it is.
I also have trees in all my mods. I guess that makes me a filthy nature-loving hippie.
Now let me talk about something in literary criticism called the "intentional fallacy" - which argues that you can never know what an author's purest intentions were in crafting any work, even if they say "These were my intentions..." because the work is independent by itself. It's like J.K Rowling saying, "By the way, Dumbledore's gay." Well, NO HE'S NOT because there's no evidence in the text that shows he is. So maybe your interpretation involves the narrator of Polaris being a squirrel, or James becoming a born-again straight at the end. Read into it yourself. James is a girl? Fine. Great.
If someone were "a bit disappointed or estranged" that a main character is black, we wouldn't hesitate to call that racism. So I'm calling it homophobia because, uh, that's what it is.
I also have trees in all my mods. I guess that makes me a filthy nature-loving hippie.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Sulkdodds » Jul 29 2009
On that note, I felt a bit miffed that we are forced to accept that the partner character has brown hair. Couldn't you have given him a hat and made him clean shaven so that blond people could enjoy the game too?
- Sulkdodds
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Draconum » Aug 02 2009
While, being gay myself might give me some bias towards the side of the creator and the game, I'd like to say that people complaining about "well I can't play a game if the character I'm playing as has a face and a gender and an occupation and motives and a personality" (and so on) are either full of shit and trying to seem objective (which, of course, I'm certainly not), or they are a rare breed of mentally-challenged individual I fortunately haven't encountered before. If you absolutely, positively must imagine that it's your face under Player One's mask to enjoy a game, then you've pretty much missed the point of "gaming", as it was initially implemented - games (role-playing and otherwise) almost always put us in the role of someone who we aren't, and we are generally forced to experience the world of the game through their perspective. Personally, I think all games should have gay, male lead characters because the straight ones that they -usually- have are utterly offensive, and I can't possibly play a game and enjoy it if the character I'm forced to play as likes women. I mean, that's reasonable, right?
The characters had to have SOME sexual orientation, whether it was represented or not. Being that a relationship is the focal point of the game (at least, thus far), it'd be very difficult for this not to ever be brought up, mentioned, or indirectly referenced without the main character forever being genderless (something which I suppose is doable, but probably a lot of trouble in terms of writing the story and not really necessary since the characters being gay should be perfectly acceptable in the first place). If I ever make a game and someone tells me, "you know, this is a wonderful game, but I think you should change the story around so that the main character isn't gay, because we don't want the player to have to think about things like that", that would immediately discourage me from ever being involved in that business again. If Campaignjunkie was setting out to make the next Halo or GTA or Gears of War game, perhaps from an entirely business perspective making the main characters gay would be a bad idea, but only because there exist people like those who have commented on this forum complaining about gay characters whose stomachs just, for some reason entirely beyond me, can't handle it.
Anyway, biased rant out of the way.... great start, Campaignjunkie. The looping voice was annoying, but that's about my only complaint, and I found the 'mute' button. I may give it another shot and try to get further in the box stacking, but really only to hear the little bit of extra content associated with the good ending. The 'memory' sequences were very haunting and well done! One of the most innovative things I've ever seen done with an FPS engine. I'd like to see where you go with this series.
The characters had to have SOME sexual orientation, whether it was represented or not. Being that a relationship is the focal point of the game (at least, thus far), it'd be very difficult for this not to ever be brought up, mentioned, or indirectly referenced without the main character forever being genderless (something which I suppose is doable, but probably a lot of trouble in terms of writing the story and not really necessary since the characters being gay should be perfectly acceptable in the first place). If I ever make a game and someone tells me, "you know, this is a wonderful game, but I think you should change the story around so that the main character isn't gay, because we don't want the player to have to think about things like that", that would immediately discourage me from ever being involved in that business again. If Campaignjunkie was setting out to make the next Halo or GTA or Gears of War game, perhaps from an entirely business perspective making the main characters gay would be a bad idea, but only because there exist people like those who have commented on this forum complaining about gay characters whose stomachs just, for some reason entirely beyond me, can't handle it.
Anyway, biased rant out of the way.... great start, Campaignjunkie. The looping voice was annoying, but that's about my only complaint, and I found the 'mute' button. I may give it another shot and try to get further in the box stacking, but really only to hear the little bit of extra content associated with the good ending. The 'memory' sequences were very haunting and well done! One of the most innovative things I've ever seen done with an FPS engine. I'd like to see where you go with this series.
- Draconum
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Guest » Aug 03 2009
Agree with above posts...the inability to "relate" to Dylan is just disguised homophobia. It's probable that most gamers actually have MORE in common with Dylan than they do with, for example, a muscled-out former convict turned supercommando who wields a chainsaw-rifle and has biceps bigger than my head. The idea that the characters in Gears of War are "easy to relate to" compared to Dylan doesn't really make sense unless one happens to be a decorated Navy Seal who bodybuilds in his spare time and regularly kills people for sport. The fact that people are more comfortable with playing a character who brutally murders people with a chainsaw than with playing a character who is in counseling for gay marriage is a little scary to me.
Anyway, it's nice to see homosexuality represented in games, but what I found even more refreshing was seeing men who actually explore their own feelings, instead of faceless, super-macho killing machines who leak testosterone and have no character depth. Keep up the good work - I can't wait for the third installment!
Anyway, it's nice to see homosexuality represented in games, but what I found even more refreshing was seeing men who actually explore their own feelings, instead of faceless, super-macho killing machines who leak testosterone and have no character depth. Keep up the good work - I can't wait for the third installment!
- Guest
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by matt » Aug 04 2009
The gay protagonist discussion seems to be missing the point - apart from being funny & topical it's a Brechtian device*, just like the unreal stage setting of the subconscious environment. You're not expected to identify with the character or be immersed in the game world, these things are meant to distance the (typically hetero male) player so you can engage critically.
Really brilliant & inspiring work, never expected this from a HL2 mod.
*for the non-polo neck wearing readers, Bertolt Brecht was a German playwright who famously used alienation techniques in his productions (unreal stage sets, directly addressing the crowd), so the audience wasn't passively absorbed in the performance & instead provoked to rational thought.
Really brilliant & inspiring work, never expected this from a HL2 mod.
*for the non-polo neck wearing readers, Bertolt Brecht was a German playwright who famously used alienation techniques in his productions (unreal stage sets, directly addressing the crowd), so the audience wasn't passively absorbed in the performance & instead provoked to rational thought.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Jugglenaut » Aug 04 2009
[quote="Draconum"]The characters had to have SOME sexual orientation, whether it was represented or not. Being that a relationship is the focal point of the game (at least, thus far), it'd be very difficult for this not to ever be brought up, mentioned, or indirectly referenced without the main character forever being genderless (something which I suppose is doable, but probably a lot of trouble in terms of writing the story and not really necessary since the characters being gay should be perfectly acceptable in the first place). [/quote]
When I first started playing, I saw Dylan and thought, "Oh, I'm playing a female," which was exactly what I thought when I played Polaris (the reason I am convinced that Polaris is played as a female was because I viewed the character as being catty and fitting a female-bitchy stereotype that it never really occurred to me the the character could be a gay male). Then I heard the name James and had a double-take. But at the same time I thought, "Okay, James could be a girl's name. There's a lot of names that swing both ways (Casey, Leslie, Jamie), and heck I even knew a girl name Cori once." But then Dylan said "he" and that cinched it as a gay couple. So the only two points that stood out to me as James being male was the name James a Dylan using pronouns. So, in my mind, it actually wouldn't be hard to change it up by simply changing the characters name to one that is used by bother genders, and then stop using pronouns to directly say which gender the character is. Not that there is anything wrong with a gay main character, but I usually prefer not to have double-takes in my game, unless they're mind-blowing plot twists like (totally referencing a game no one else has probably played) Baten Kaitos (Nintendo Gamecube, one of my favorite RPGs in terms of story).
What I did really enjoy was the story telling, and I honestly found the divorce ending more satisfying emotionally. Because I feel that emotions and thoughts should be shared, and through the end dialogue I felt that Dylan understood why there should be a divorce and felt that he understood my side of things. And for me, the "success" of the game was reaching an understanding with Dylan. Although, after destroying the X9 box and getting to the stage with all the set pieces, there was a small regret for having to end in a divorce. But I have had some relationships that I have had to end, and have regretted it for months afterward, even though the entire time I knew it was the right thing to do. Because if a relationship doesn't work in the first place, and there isn't any change in the people in the relationship, then the it will not work no matter how much "fixing" is done (which is why I cried at the end of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, as I felt the relationship was doomed to end in failure again).
When I first started playing, I saw Dylan and thought, "Oh, I'm playing a female," which was exactly what I thought when I played Polaris (the reason I am convinced that Polaris is played as a female was because I viewed the character as being catty and fitting a female-bitchy stereotype that it never really occurred to me the the character could be a gay male). Then I heard the name James and had a double-take. But at the same time I thought, "Okay, James could be a girl's name. There's a lot of names that swing both ways (Casey, Leslie, Jamie), and heck I even knew a girl name Cori once." But then Dylan said "he" and that cinched it as a gay couple. So the only two points that stood out to me as James being male was the name James a Dylan using pronouns. So, in my mind, it actually wouldn't be hard to change it up by simply changing the characters name to one that is used by bother genders, and then stop using pronouns to directly say which gender the character is. Not that there is anything wrong with a gay main character, but I usually prefer not to have double-takes in my game, unless they're mind-blowing plot twists like (totally referencing a game no one else has probably played) Baten Kaitos (Nintendo Gamecube, one of my favorite RPGs in terms of story).
What I did really enjoy was the story telling, and I honestly found the divorce ending more satisfying emotionally. Because I feel that emotions and thoughts should be shared, and through the end dialogue I felt that Dylan understood why there should be a divorce and felt that he understood my side of things. And for me, the "success" of the game was reaching an understanding with Dylan. Although, after destroying the X9 box and getting to the stage with all the set pieces, there was a small regret for having to end in a divorce. But I have had some relationships that I have had to end, and have regretted it for months afterward, even though the entire time I knew it was the right thing to do. Because if a relationship doesn't work in the first place, and there isn't any change in the people in the relationship, then the it will not work no matter how much "fixing" is done (which is why I cried at the end of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, as I felt the relationship was doomed to end in failure again).
- Jugglenaut
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Frostdust » Aug 11 2009
[quote="Campaignjunkie"]In terms of intended solutions / skill progression...
G1 requires you to do some "lateral thinking" and walk across the spotlight rigging.[/quote]
Really? I never thought those were physically intractable, or even paid them any attention, until I read through this thread. I solved it by putting a chair in F3, crouching down to pick up the box D4, then swing it around to put it into G1 from the front.
I'm not trying to brag about my success, but if you want to make some of the solutions more obvious (as you hinted at in one of your other posts), indicate somehow that the spotlights' support beam is walkable.
Also, two "bugs", I guess, that I noticed:
-Using the ladder on the "eastern" shelves, A-I, often results in my getting stuck in the grating of I3, forcing me to reload
-Like another poster mentioned with Dylan's legs dancing around, loading from a save resulted in the counselor and Dylan standing up on the monitor, so that their faces were out of the camera's view. Maybe you need to tell it reset the actors' pose whenever someone loads a saved game, or something.
Oh, by the way, great games. I like how there aren't any explicit instructions to the "right" goal, and it's up to the player to figure it out. I'm looking forward to the rest of your releases.
G1 requires you to do some "lateral thinking" and walk across the spotlight rigging.[/quote]
Really? I never thought those were physically intractable, or even paid them any attention, until I read through this thread. I solved it by putting a chair in F3, crouching down to pick up the box D4, then swing it around to put it into G1 from the front.
I'm not trying to brag about my success, but if you want to make some of the solutions more obvious (as you hinted at in one of your other posts), indicate somehow that the spotlights' support beam is walkable.
Also, two "bugs", I guess, that I noticed:
-Using the ladder on the "eastern" shelves, A-I, often results in my getting stuck in the grating of I3, forcing me to reload
-Like another poster mentioned with Dylan's legs dancing around, loading from a save resulted in the counselor and Dylan standing up on the monitor, so that their faces were out of the camera's view. Maybe you need to tell it reset the actors' pose whenever someone loads a saved game, or something.
Oh, by the way, great games. I like how there aren't any explicit instructions to the "right" goal, and it's up to the player to figure it out. I'm looking forward to the rest of your releases.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Deathbagel » Aug 18 2009
Was I the only one who really couldn't stack them at all? Not once could I get up the ladder with a box, I just can't.
Nonetheless, this was a fantastic game. For me, it didn't really matter that I didn't understand the gameplay, it's really something how you 'care' for the player like that. It doesn't matter what you do, you can still get a meaningful and fun experience out of the game. I, with much blissful ignorance, ran around smashing all of the crates and watching the memories, and when I got to the end, I was a little dissapointed in the outcome, but had had a wonderful experience. To me the actual message (you have to repress memories in order to get along sometimes) wasn't as powerful as the general idea of how much people can go through together and how powerful any story can be when put together (the couple felt very real, and very easy to relate to (even though I have never been in a relationship (and yes I like parenthesis :D).
I like how you subtly made them gay, instead of being like "LOOK GAY PEOPLE HERE ME YELL", you just made it mater-of-fact and natural. Post-sexual-orientationism?? That's how we should work with all types of prejudice, naturally accepting differences, instead of hating them or, just as common today, being overly-defensive about them or just pretending they don't exist at all.
Anyways, fantastic mod (and manifesto, I myself am an aspiring mapper) and I await with much anticipation "Much Madness."
Yours,
Deathbagel
Nonetheless, this was a fantastic game. For me, it didn't really matter that I didn't understand the gameplay, it's really something how you 'care' for the player like that. It doesn't matter what you do, you can still get a meaningful and fun experience out of the game. I, with much blissful ignorance, ran around smashing all of the crates and watching the memories, and when I got to the end, I was a little dissapointed in the outcome, but had had a wonderful experience. To me the actual message (you have to repress memories in order to get along sometimes) wasn't as powerful as the general idea of how much people can go through together and how powerful any story can be when put together (the couple felt very real, and very easy to relate to (even though I have never been in a relationship (and yes I like parenthesis :D).
I like how you subtly made them gay, instead of being like "LOOK GAY PEOPLE HERE ME YELL", you just made it mater-of-fact and natural. Post-sexual-orientationism?? That's how we should work with all types of prejudice, naturally accepting differences, instead of hating them or, just as common today, being overly-defensive about them or just pretending they don't exist at all.
Anyways, fantastic mod (and manifesto, I myself am an aspiring mapper) and I await with much anticipation "Much Madness."
Yours,
Deathbagel
- Deathbagel
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by omgcheez » Aug 23 2009
i loved the design of this mod, and was wondering how to create custom hud hints, like the ones in HWC, if you could inform me, it would be much appreciated
- omgcheez
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Deathbagel » Aug 26 2009
Just use a game_text entity, and set the colors and locations so that it looks like a hud message (ie. orange-ey with black in the lower left part of the screen).
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Game_text
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Game_text
- Deathbagel
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Deathbagel » Aug 29 2009
Oh, whoops. Although, by the sound of the article you can only use hud messages in a certain text file. Can you modify that file?
Either way, thanks, I didn't know that entity existed.
Either way, thanks, I didn't know that entity existed.
- Deathbagel
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by rb14 » Sep 02 2009
At last. At long long last someone finally has the balls to introduce overtly gay characters. Thank you thank you thank you.
Just a thought: Next time could you introduce the ability to undress the guy, shoes, socks, shirt, pants, etc. Not that I have any interest at all in seeing his "bits", I just love the idea of loads of "straight" male gamers grappling with the dilemma of whether they want to have a quick look. "What the hell, nobody will know."
More please.
Just a thought: Next time could you introduce the ability to undress the guy, shoes, socks, shirt, pants, etc. Not that I have any interest at all in seeing his "bits", I just love the idea of loads of "straight" male gamers grappling with the dilemma of whether they want to have a quick look. "What the hell, nobody will know."
More please.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by rb14 » Sep 02 2009
[quote="Sulkdodds"]On that note, I felt a bit miffed that we are forced to accept that the partner character has brown hair. Couldn't you have given him a hat and made him clean shaven so that blond people could enjoy the game too?[/quote]
What a top post.
I should really have added that I loved the game. You managed to get into some really strong psychological issues. Loved the repressed memory boxes. What a hoot.
Am I the only one who saw a parallel with the Dr Melfi character in "The Sopranos"?
Excellent work. Really really strong.
What a top post.
I should really have added that I loved the game. You managed to get into some really strong psychological issues. Loved the repressed memory boxes. What a hoot.
Am I the only one who saw a parallel with the Dr Melfi character in "The Sopranos"?
Excellent work. Really really strong.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Metroid » Sep 06 2009
Just popping in to say I think both these releases were great. Polaris a little less so cause it lagged on my computer and I despise astronomy, not to mention I disliked the protagonist's personality (I got a distinctly female vibe, by the way, but I suppose there's some overly bitchy gay guys out there.)
HWC, on the other hand, was intensely emotional for me and endlessly enticing, unlike such mods as "Dear Esther" which lay down no hints and no motivation for what the protagonist is doing. I was in love with the whole thing, down to the set piece memories, the main chamber, the counseling session, the tiny hints, all of it. Great voice acting as well: it was natural, not necessarily dramatic, which was fitting. Being gay myself, I felt an automatic connection to what was going on "in there." I also didn't mind the constant repetition, as that really just further emphasized the unsettling atmosphere in that place.
Like I said before, I'm glad there were enough hints to motivate me and keep me going until the end, rather than utter ambiguity, and more importantly, lack of pay-off at the end. The first ending I got was them being divorced, which sort of made me sad. I thought destroying the boxes would "help" the marriage rather than end it.
Maybe it was for the best, though? I dunno, I eventually went back and did the "married" ending, which left me a tad more gratified. It was really an intriguing experience all around, though.
Far as gameplay goes, I don't like tedious box stacking as much as the next guy, but the atmosphere kept me distant from that.
To toss a few theories out, I'll say that the whole thing is either an elaborate metaphor for the brain and what-not (rather trodden on, in my opinion) or, quite literally, someone controlling someone else from a distant control area.
Anyway, wonderful job all around on HWC. I think I'll go back briefly and replay Polaris to see the other endings, too.
HWC, on the other hand, was intensely emotional for me and endlessly enticing, unlike such mods as "Dear Esther" which lay down no hints and no motivation for what the protagonist is doing. I was in love with the whole thing, down to the set piece memories, the main chamber, the counseling session, the tiny hints, all of it. Great voice acting as well: it was natural, not necessarily dramatic, which was fitting. Being gay myself, I felt an automatic connection to what was going on "in there." I also didn't mind the constant repetition, as that really just further emphasized the unsettling atmosphere in that place.
Like I said before, I'm glad there were enough hints to motivate me and keep me going until the end, rather than utter ambiguity, and more importantly, lack of pay-off at the end. The first ending I got was them being divorced, which sort of made me sad. I thought destroying the boxes would "help" the marriage rather than end it.
Maybe it was for the best, though? I dunno, I eventually went back and did the "married" ending, which left me a tad more gratified. It was really an intriguing experience all around, though.
Far as gameplay goes, I don't like tedious box stacking as much as the next guy, but the atmosphere kept me distant from that.
To toss a few theories out, I'll say that the whole thing is either an elaborate metaphor for the brain and what-not (rather trodden on, in my opinion) or, quite literally, someone controlling someone else from a distant control area.
Anyway, wonderful job all around on HWC. I think I'll go back briefly and replay Polaris to see the other endings, too.
- Metroid
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Guest » Sep 25 2009
Don't know if I have much to add, except that I really enjoyed the mirror at the start.
Also, I agree with the person above me. It's absurd that people think that games should just be about people like them, and it's telling that such a complaint is most often voiced by people who want to see more white, straight, male protagonists (as if they didn't have enough of those to keep their egos satiated already).
Also, I agree with the person above me. It's absurd that people think that games should just be about people like them, and it's telling that such a complaint is most often voiced by people who want to see more white, straight, male protagonists (as if they didn't have enough of those to keep their egos satiated already).
- Guest
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Guest » Oct 06 2009
One wonders how gay people could cope with playing most video games as a straight protagonist. Jarring, impossible to sympathize, etc... etc...
- Guest
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Campaignjunkie » Oct 06 2009
The warning on the mirror is probably the thing I'm most proud of... in the entire mod. I suspect most people don't notice it, though. Which is fine.
Re: Liner Notes: Handle With Care
by Theocrati » Oct 06 2009
Hi there.
Forgive me if I'm derailing the thread, I didn't pause to read everything yet.
I just wanted to say, I read your article on the Escapist, and it is the consummate articulation of my experience and that of every other gamer-fag I know.
I went on to peek at Radiator, and it looks resplendent, I intend to download it the moment I get Ep2. , please continue with your work, and your articles on the Escapist.
I've got our project site linked, and I have been passing around the permalink if "Not that there's anything wrong with that".
It's rare I feel such gratitude when a queer writer decries their plight, but you sir just managed to strike the chord without sounding like a screaming queen.
Thankyou, Again.
-Theocrati.
Gamerfag, lawlfag and fagfag.
Forgive me if I'm derailing the thread, I didn't pause to read everything yet.
I just wanted to say, I read your article on the Escapist, and it is the consummate articulation of my experience and that of every other gamer-fag I know.
I went on to peek at Radiator, and it looks resplendent, I intend to download it the moment I get Ep2. , please continue with your work, and your articles on the Escapist.
I've got our project site linked, and I have been passing around the permalink if "Not that there's anything wrong with that".
It's rare I feel such gratitude when a queer writer decries their plight, but you sir just managed to strike the chord without sounding like a screaming queen.
Thankyou, Again.
-Theocrati.
Gamerfag, lawlfag and fagfag.
- Theocrati
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